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Josh looking at his future
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| TALKS: Josh Gowling |
JOSH Gowling admits he faces a "difficult decision" over his future after revealing Cherries' relegation to League Two had hit him hard.
The talented central defender is one of a number of players whose existing contract is due to expire at the end of next month.
And Gowling, 24, would be entitled to leave Dean Court on a Bosman free transfer unless fresh terms could be agreed.
Boss Kevin Bond was hoping to persuade him to commit to a new deal earlier this season, although Gowling was keen to keep his options open.
But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week.
Gowling told the Daily Echo: "I didn't realise how much I loved the club until after we had gone down so it would be hard to leave.
"But I've got to make the right decision for me and my career. My agent will be talking to the chairman this week."
Gowling, who was handed an improved contract by former boss Sean O'Driscoll in February 2006, added: "I'm still feeling the effects of relegation.
"It was new to me and I'm definitely not over it. It's hard to describe but it makes you feel a bit numb. It's the first time I've gone through it."
Gowling joined Cherries on a free transfer in 2005 following a successful trial spell and made 36 appearances last season.
He said: "Bournemouth is my first professional club in England and, every year I've been here, we've been tipped to go down, but I never thought it would happen.
"We'd been on such a good run and got it back to being a point adrift. And because you've been on a run, you feel there's no way you can go down.
"Even when it looked perilous after we'd lost the 10 points, I thought we could do it. I thought Doncaster would beat Cheltenham but I was wrong."
The Coventry-born centre-back added: "I went to Carlisle thinking a point would be enough but, after the game, it was heartbreaking. We got a point but Cheltenham won.
"We went into the game wanting to win and didn't go there to get a point. But if you looked at the game at Cheltenham, you wouldn't have expected them to pick up anything.
"When you look at Donny - they would have got automatic promotion if they'd won - you couldn't have any more incentive to win a game than that. But it's not their fault, it was down to us. A win would've kept us up."
7:00am Monday 12th May 2008
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CommentPosted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 7:49am Mon 12 May 08
No surprise here
Posted by: GMcMahon, Highcliffe on 7:56am Mon 12 May 08
So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.
So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.
Posted by: afcbjohn, poole on 8:16am Mon 12 May 08
Lets see some loyalty Josh you are one of a squad that all be it for a 10 point deduction would have finished mid-table so lets see the loyalty from the whole squad and win league 2 next season, sometimes a step backwards is a good thing the whole team could win something next season.
Lets see some loyalty Josh you are one of a squad that all be it for a 10 point deduction would have finished mid-table so lets see the loyalty from the whole squad and win league 2 next season, sometimes a step backwards is a good thing the whole team could win something next season.
Posted by: Huckfan, Poole on 8:39am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]afcbjohn[/bold] wrote:
Lets see some loyalty Josh you are one of a squad that all be it for a 10 point deduction would have finished mid-table so lets see the loyalty from the whole squad and win league 2 next season, sometimes a step backwards is a good thing the whole team could win something next season.[/quote] AFCBJohn
Totally agree, Josh contributed to a number of games lost this season, due to silly errors oh and admitting being tired (Southend).
It is be a bit rich of him to say he needs to think of his career now. He should have thought of that while he was playing.
afcbjohn wrote:
Lets see some loyalty Josh you are one of a squad that all be it for a 10 point deduction would have finished mid-table so lets see the loyalty from the whole squad and win league 2 next season, sometimes a step backwards is a good thing the whole team could win something next season.
AFCBJohn
Totally agree, Josh contributed to a number of games lost this season, due to silly errors oh and admitting being tired (Southend).
It is be a bit rich of him to say he needs to think of his career now. He should have thought of that while he was playing.
Posted by: Chubbs, Bmth on 8:56am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]GMcMahon[/bold] wrote:
So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.[/quote] Its hardly Bonds fault if players want to go for better money, I hope he stays and it would be nice to see a player show loyalty to the club,but I am realistic and doubt that will happen if a good offer comes along.
It certainly wont be Bonds fault if someone offers more money and he goes in the summer.
GMcMahon wrote:
So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.
Its hardly Bonds fault if players want to go for better money, I hope he stays and it would be nice to see a player show loyalty to the club,but I am realistic and doubt that will happen if a good offer comes along.
It certainly wont be Bonds fault if someone offers more money and he goes in the summer.
Posted by: alumchineboy, Alumchine on 8:59am Mon 12 May 08
If he wants to go and earn £10 a week more elsewhere then let him go.......he'll lose out in the long run. Lets face it - what a nice life it must be being a footballer. He doesn't know how lucky he is to be living here playing for us
If he wants to go and earn £10 a week more elsewhere then let him go.......he'll lose out in the long run. Lets face it - what a nice life it must be being a footballer. He doesn't know how lucky he is to be living here playing for us
Posted by: Garyt, Daventry on 9:09am Mon 12 May 08
This is only what you would expect when a good L1 team (the last 9 games of the season proved that), with good L1 players, drops to L2. You really can't blame the players for wanting to better themselves, even though the team will suffer. Let's hope no-one is looking for centre backs in close season!!!
This is only what you would expect when a good L1 team (the last 9 games of the season proved that), with good L1 players, drops to L2. You really can't blame the players for wanting to better themselves, even though the team will suffer. Let's hope no-one is looking for centre backs in close season!!!
Posted by: mike clegg, bournemouth on 9:10am Mon 12 May 08
Mostyn and Sly are the ones to blame for this mess with certain players not Bond.
They put us into Administration with no plan to get out of it and of course there is Mostyns THREE failed bids. A total and utter mess Jeff, thanks. No plan A or B just a joke and now a read that " the Chairman will be meeting my agent this week " Can this be legal , we have no owner / chairman do we ? WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION AND I THOUGHT THAT MEANT NO DECISIONS CAN BE MADE BY POTENTIAL OWNERS ?
Mostyn and Sly are the ones to blame for this mess with certain players not Bond.
They put us into Administration with no plan to get out of it and of course there is Mostyns THREE failed bids. A total and utter mess Jeff, thanks. No plan A or B just a joke and now a read that " the Chairman will be meeting my agent this week " Can this be legal , we have no owner / chairman do we ? WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION AND I THOUGHT THAT MEANT NO DECISIONS CAN BE MADE BY POTENTIAL OWNERS ?
Posted by: GMcMahon, Highcliffe on 9:17am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Chubbs[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]GMcMahon[/bold] wrote:
So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.[/quote] Its hardly Bonds fault if players want to go for better money, I hope he stays and it would be nice to see a player show loyalty to the club,but I am realistic and doubt that will happen if a good offer comes along.
It certainly wont be Bonds fault if someone offers more money and he goes in the summer.[/quote] Who said it was Bond's thought, I certainly didn't, Bond wants to keep the squad together but if Josh and others decide otherwise it puts a spanner in the works, you are assuming the wrong things from my post.
Chubbs wrote:
GMcMahon wrote:
So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.
Its hardly Bonds fault if players want to go for better money, I hope he stays and it would be nice to see a player show loyalty to the club,but I am realistic and doubt that will happen if a good offer comes along.
It certainly wont be Bonds fault if someone offers more money and he goes in the summer.
Who said it was Bond's thought, I certainly didn't, Bond wants to keep the squad together but if Josh and others decide otherwise it puts a spanner in the works, you are assuming the wrong things from my post.
Posted by: GMcMahon, Highcliffe on 9:22am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]mike clegg[/bold] wrote:
Mostyn and Sly are the ones to blame for this mess with certain players not Bond.
They put us into Administration with no plan to get out of it and of course there is Mostyns THREE failed bids. A total and utter mess Jeff, thanks. No plan A or B just a joke and now a read that " the Chairman will be meeting my agent this week " Can this be legal , we have no owner / chairman do we ? WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION AND I THOUGHT THAT MEANT NO DECISIONS CAN BE MADE BY POTENTIAL OWNERS ?[/quote] You can't be serious, how is it the blame of Mostyn and Sly, if Josh leaves it will be his decision no one else, and the fact we are in administration goes way beyond this season and you know it, why are people looking for someone to blame, Josh nearly left last season and he has spoken of it before, it's part and parcel of being a small club nothing has changed, all we can hope is there is some loyalty form the players but that is on short supply these days, so come on stop looking for another reason to have a dig at Mostyn, remember him the bloke who kept the players in a job last season.
mike clegg wrote:
Mostyn and Sly are the ones to blame for this mess with certain players not Bond.
They put us into Administration with no plan to get out of it and of course there is Mostyns THREE failed bids. A total and utter mess Jeff, thanks. No plan A or B just a joke and now a read that " the Chairman will be meeting my agent this week " Can this be legal , we have no owner / chairman do we ? WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION AND I THOUGHT THAT MEANT NO DECISIONS CAN BE MADE BY POTENTIAL OWNERS ?
You can't be serious, how is it the blame of Mostyn and Sly, if Josh leaves it will be his decision no one else, and the fact we are in administration goes way beyond this season and you know it, why are people looking for someone to blame, Josh nearly left last season and he has spoken of it before, it's part and parcel of being a small club nothing has changed, all we can hope is there is some loyalty form the players but that is on short supply these days, so come on stop looking for another reason to have a dig at Mostyn, remember him the bloke who kept the players in a job last season.
Posted by: dean3020 on 10:04am Mon 12 May 08
had a great season last season but not this season. if he doesn't wanna be here then he can leave. all i would say is i doubt he will 'further his career' any time soon, no league 1 sides would put him in their first team based upon this season's performances
had a great season last season but not this season. if he doesn't wanna be here then he can leave. all i would say is i doubt he will 'further his career' any time soon, no league 1 sides would put him in their first team based upon this season's performances
Posted by: mike clegg, bournemouth on 10:33am Mon 12 May 08
You are having a laugh again G.McMahon, are you Jeffs brother ?
Of course Jeff takes the blame, the buck stops at the top. Sly and Mostyn did take over certain debts etc but they knew this when they stole the shares. Lets see the accounts that they did not get audited and i imagine they will show NO payments to THE TAX MAN or any NIC payments, players pensions etc etc.
Come on wake up to the fact that M&S paid very little out check the creditors list.
Also remember that M&S are again holding the club to ransome with their demands of getting their so called money back. It appears to them that everyone else can lose their money but not them ????? Jeff thinks its still his club and he never puts money in without wanting it back. Does he want his last borrowed £80k back, i would say YES.
You are having a laugh again G.McMahon, are you Jeffs brother ?
Of course Jeff takes the blame, the buck stops at the top. Sly and Mostyn did take over certain debts etc but they knew this when they stole the shares. Lets see the accounts that they did not get audited and i imagine they will show NO payments to THE TAX MAN or any NIC payments, players pensions etc etc.
Come on wake up to the fact that M&S paid very little out check the creditors list.
Also remember that M&S are again holding the club to ransome with their demands of getting their so called money back. It appears to them that everyone else can lose their money but not them ????? Jeff thinks its still his club and he never puts money in without wanting it back. Does he want his last borrowed £80k back, i would say YES.
Posted by: Kevicious, Poole on 10:41am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]dean3020[/bold] wrote:
had a great season last season but not this season. if he doesn't wanna be here then he can leave. all i would say is i doubt he will 'further his career' any time soon, no league 1 sides would put him in their first team based upon this season's performances[/quote] Yep, he can join the long list of people who failed to do anything after leaving the Cherries.
Talking of which, I see John Spicer has just been released by Burnley after less than 40 games in 3 years...
dean3020 wrote:
had a great season last season but not this season. if he doesn't wanna be here then he can leave. all i would say is i doubt he will 'further his career' any time soon, no league 1 sides would put him in their first team based upon this season's performances
Yep, he can join the long list of people who failed to do anything after leaving the Cherries.
Talking of which, I see John Spicer has just been released by Burnley after less than 40 games in 3 years...
Posted by: tednphil, bournemouth on 10:51am Mon 12 May 08
Apart from Wade and Baby Fletch, Broady is the only player who has left in recent years and done reasonably well. Ironic that he will now be in League 1 next season.
Does the lack of success elsewhere from our ex-players mean that we have not had the quality of players that are really good enough to play regularly in League One? That's why we have always been flirting with relegation lately
Apart from Wade and Baby Fletch, Broady is the only player who has left in recent years and done reasonably well. Ironic that he will now be in League 1 next season.
Does the lack of success elsewhere from our ex-players mean that we have not had the quality of players that are really good enough to play regularly in League One? That's why we have always been flirting with relegation lately
Posted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 10:54am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Chubbs[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]GMcMahon[/bold] wrote: So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.[/quote] Its hardly Bonds fault if players want to go for better money, I hope he stays and it would be nice to see a player show loyalty to the club,but I am realistic and doubt that will happen if a good offer comes along. It certainly wont be Bonds fault if someone offers more money and he goes in the summer.[/quote] I dont think G McMahon said it was Bonds fault simply saying its altering Bonds plans already Frankly dont know what the fuss is about Gowling had to be favorite to be the first to want to jump ship Let him go if he wants to .He wont amount to much either way He seems to have forgotten very quickly how the Club stood by him when he was injured but there are more important players to keep hold of such as Hollands so I wont lose any sleep about Gowling going if he goes
Chubbs wrote:
GMcMahon wrote: So it begins, Josh was always the most likely to think about leaving now we have to see who else is thinking about it, so much for Bonds plans for the squad.
Its hardly Bonds fault if players want to go for better money, I hope he stays and it would be nice to see a player show loyalty to the club,but I am realistic and doubt that will happen if a good offer comes along. It certainly wont be Bonds fault if someone offers more money and he goes in the summer.
I dont think G McMahon said it was Bonds fault simply saying its altering Bonds plans already Frankly dont know what the fuss is about Gowling had to be favorite to be the first to want to jump ship Let him go if he wants to .He wont amount to much either way He seems to have forgotten very quickly how the Club stood by him when he was injured but there are more important players to keep hold of such as Hollands so I wont lose any sleep about Gowling going if he goes
Posted by: muffin the mule, wallisdown on 10:57am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]dean3020[/bold] wrote:
had a great season last season but not this season. if he doesn't wanna be here then he can leave. all i would say is i doubt he will 'further his career' any time soon, no league 1 sides would put him in their first team based upon this season's performances[/quote] sour grapes i think - why shouldnt he go and chase the money ? football is not about loyalty to your team ,its about cashing in on your talent ,whilst you can and that is an unknown quantity .given the choice of 50k a season or 100k a season what would any of you do ? they have mortgages and families to support just like the rest of us.any player with any talent in the current squad who is offered the right money would be a fool not to start packing - there may be a rush ,relegation is just the start of the rot.you wouldnt stick with your job in similar circumstances and these people are no different ....start waving goodbye
dean3020 wrote:
had a great season last season but not this season. if he doesn't wanna be here then he can leave. all i would say is i doubt he will 'further his career' any time soon, no league 1 sides would put him in their first team based upon this season's performances
sour grapes i think - why shouldnt he go and chase the money ? football is not about loyalty to your team ,its about cashing in on your talent ,whilst you can and that is an unknown quantity .given the choice of 50k a season or 100k a season what would any of you do ? they have mortgages and families to support just like the rest of us.any player with any talent in the current squad who is offered the right money would be a fool not to start packing - there may be a rush ,relegation is just the start of the rot.you wouldnt stick with your job in similar circumstances and these people are no different ....start waving goodbye
Posted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 10:58am Mon 12 May 08
Another distraction
[italic][bold]JEFF HAVE YOU GOT YOUR MYSTERY INVESTOR ON BOARD YET[/bold][/italic]
Another distraction
JEFF HAVE YOU GOT YOUR MYSTERY INVESTOR ON BOARD YET
Posted by: Throopmill, Mt Everest on 11:18am Mon 12 May 08
Yes. How can Mostyn discuss anything with any one when Krasner is running the club under the rules of administration?????
The more this charade continues and Mostyns involvement as the EX chairman the more suspicious one becomes of the the relationship between Krasner and Mostyn?????????
Mostyn shoud be working with his latest consortium if he has one and not driven another one away? Where is the new investement Mostyn?
It's getting like a crazy Monty Python sketch.
Yes. How can Mostyn discuss anything with any one when Krasner is running the club under the rules of administration?????
The more this charade continues and Mostyns involvement as the EX chairman the more suspicious one becomes of the the relationship between Krasner and Mostyn?????????
Mostyn shoud be working with his latest consortium if he has one and not driven another one away? Where is the new investement Mostyn?
It's getting like a crazy Monty Python sketch.
Posted by: CJR, Fleet on 11:33am Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]GMcMahon[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]mike clegg[/bold] wrote: Mostyn and Sly are the ones to blame for this mess with certain players not Bond. They put us into Administration with no plan to get out of it and of course there is Mostyns THREE failed bids. A total and utter mess Jeff, thanks. No plan A or B just a joke and now a read that " the Chairman will be meeting my agent this week " Can this be legal , we have no owner / chairman do we ? WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION AND I THOUGHT THAT MEANT NO DECISIONS CAN BE MADE BY POTENTIAL OWNERS ?[/quote] You can't be serious, how is it the blame of Mostyn and Sly, if Josh leaves it will be his decision no one else, and the fact we are in administration goes way beyond this season and you know it, why are people looking for someone to blame, Josh nearly left last season and he has spoken of it before, it's part and parcel of being a small club nothing has changed, all we can hope is there is some loyalty form the players but that is on short supply these days, so come on stop looking for another reason to have a dig at Mostyn, remember him the bloke who kept the players in a job last season.[/quote] I can see a long string happening with mike clegg. Its old comments going nowhere and basically poitless. Leave him to it and move onto the more constructive ideas.
GMcMahon wrote:
mike clegg wrote: Mostyn and Sly are the ones to blame for this mess with certain players not Bond. They put us into Administration with no plan to get out of it and of course there is Mostyns THREE failed bids. A total and utter mess Jeff, thanks. No plan A or B just a joke and now a read that " the Chairman will be meeting my agent this week " Can this be legal , we have no owner / chairman do we ? WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION AND I THOUGHT THAT MEANT NO DECISIONS CAN BE MADE BY POTENTIAL OWNERS ?
You can't be serious, how is it the blame of Mostyn and Sly, if Josh leaves it will be his decision no one else, and the fact we are in administration goes way beyond this season and you know it, why are people looking for someone to blame, Josh nearly left last season and he has spoken of it before, it's part and parcel of being a small club nothing has changed, all we can hope is there is some loyalty form the players but that is on short supply these days, so come on stop looking for another reason to have a dig at Mostyn, remember him the bloke who kept the players in a job last season.
I can see a long string happening with mike clegg. Its old comments going nowhere and basically poitless. Leave him to it and move onto the more constructive ideas.
Posted by: richard.board, southampton on 12:08pm Mon 12 May 08
How many times have you heard Kevin Bond doing his nut at his centre halves for letting people score when unmarked.He is a good player-but not so much last year. Let us find who is wanting to stay-and then let them go if they can not committ to the clause. Fear he will go to Donny .,
most definately if they go up. After SOD
BUCKET BOY Rok
bought him here in the first place.
ROK is RICHARD 0 Kelly
How many times have you heard Kevin Bond doing his nut at his centre halves for letting people score when unmarked.He is a good player-but not so much last year. Let us find who is wanting to stay-and then let them go if they can not committ to the clause. Fear he will go to Donny .,
most definately if they go up. After SOD
BUCKET BOY Rok
bought him here in the first place.
ROK is RICHARD 0 Kelly
Posted by: clinkers, Alton on 12:43pm Mon 12 May 08
Again we have this allegation that M&S "stole" the shares. No, the shares were transferred to them. If there was a quid pro quo for the transfer of the shares and this was never received, you have to ask those who transferred the shares why. It looks to me like the sort of situation where you agree to sell your car, and you hand over the keys before the cheque has cleared. Not very business like if that is what happened - and I am not saying that it did.
Again we have this allegation that M&S "stole" the shares. No, the shares were transferred to them. If there was a quid pro quo for the transfer of the shares and this was never received, you have to ask those who transferred the shares why. It looks to me like the sort of situation where you agree to sell your car, and you hand over the keys before the cheque has cleared. Not very business like if that is what happened - and I am not saying that it did.
Posted by: mike clegg, bournemouth on 1:55pm Mon 12 May 08
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are .
Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are .
Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
Posted by: mike clegg, bournemouth on 1:55pm Mon 12 May 08
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are .
Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are .
Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
Posted by: GMcMahon, Highcliffe on 2:15pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]mike clegg[/bold] wrote:
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are .
Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ??? [/quote] You are making a number of inaccurate assumptions and you are laying the blame for the clubs financial state all on one person, these comments are neither accurate or fair, and as things stand you have no more of an idea about the financial future of the club than anyone but those involved, as for the false bids that is also incorrect, look back over the last 3 months and look at what actually happened, you may not like Mostyn but you are making things up and not using the facts, don't you think it's time to put all the bad blood behind us and move on this includes players that want to leave, the only way forward is with those who have the future of the club at heart on or off the field.
mike clegg wrote:
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are .
Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
You are making a number of inaccurate assumptions and you are laying the blame for the clubs financial state all on one person, these comments are neither accurate or fair, and as things stand you have no more of an idea about the financial future of the club than anyone but those involved, as for the false bids that is also incorrect, look back over the last 3 months and look at what actually happened, you may not like Mostyn but you are making things up and not using the facts, don't you think it's time to put all the bad blood behind us and move on this includes players that want to leave, the only way forward is with those who have the future of the club at heart on or off the field.
Posted by: john coombes, Tiverton on 3:18pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]mike clegg[/bold] wrote:
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are . Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ??? [/quote] Mike are you really a supporter of the club, most people know it is now time to move forward, your comments are your opion and you are entitled to them, but when the supporters of the club have read them once we do not need them to be rammed down our throats 3 or 4 times a day, be a good chap and get lost while people try and get us back on track
mike clegg wrote:
Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are . Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
Mike are you really a supporter of the club, most people know it is now time to move forward, your comments are your opion and you are entitled to them, but when the supporters of the club have read them once we do not need them to be rammed down our throats 3 or 4 times a day, be a good chap and get lost while people try and get us back on track
Posted by: Chubbs, Bmth on 3:38pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]GMcMahon[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]mike clegg[/bold] wrote: Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are . Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ??? [/quote] You are making a number of inaccurate assumptions and you are laying the blame for the clubs financial state all on one person, these comments are neither accurate or fair, and as things stand you have no more of an idea about the financial future of the club than anyone but those involved, as for the false bids that is also incorrect, look back over the last 3 months and look at what actually happened, you may not like Mostyn but you are making things up and not using the facts, don't you think it's time to put all the bad blood behind us and move on this includes players that want to leave, the only way forward is with those who have the future of the club at heart on or off the field.[/quote] Totally agree! You make big assumptions Mike based on what you think and not fact.
Do us all a favour and change the record, we get the picture!
GMcMahon wrote:
mike clegg wrote: Sorry CLINKERS maybe i used the wrong word in saying they STOLE the shares ? Perhaps i should have said that they just told FIBS in saying that they would invest £750 k (thats in writing ) I blame M&S because they put the club into Administration with NO plan and have made us a laughing stock by making false bids and look at our present situation today ? All the players must be wondering whats going on , i certainly are . Oue ex Chairman and ex vice Chairman have not got a clue or for that matter a penny to spend. And before you say Jeff`s kept us afloat , think again , he`s got no choice if he want`s his money back, all of which he`s got secured ???
You are making a number of inaccurate assumptions and you are laying the blame for the clubs financial state all on one person, these comments are neither accurate or fair, and as things stand you have no more of an idea about the financial future of the club than anyone but those involved, as for the false bids that is also incorrect, look back over the last 3 months and look at what actually happened, you may not like Mostyn but you are making things up and not using the facts, don't you think it's time to put all the bad blood behind us and move on this includes players that want to leave, the only way forward is with those who have the future of the club at heart on or off the field.
Totally agree! You make big assumptions Mike based on what you think and not fact.
Do us all a favour and change the record, we get the picture!
Posted by: kenno, Sidmouth on 3:54pm Mon 12 May 08
Ebbsfleet.
Posted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 4:08pm Mon 12 May 08
But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week.
[bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold]
But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week.
Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players Posted by: ross, christchurch on 4:12pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]kevvo[/bold] wrote:
But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. [bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold] [/quote] nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
kevvo wrote:
But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players
nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
Posted by: Charminster1965, charminster on 4:21pm Mon 12 May 08
Why should players be loyal to this club if it does`nt work the other way round? Look at Fletch and Broady. Fletch was here for 15 years and Broady since he was a little nipper. Both players always gave 100% in games and played integeral parts of getting us promoted and almost making it to the league 1 play offs. Broady was even 1 season off getting a testimonial. Think both could`ve done a job for us this season but who knows. So loyalty needs to work both ways. Good luck Josh whatever decision you make.
Why should players be loyal to this club if it does`nt work the other way round? Look at Fletch and Broady. Fletch was here for 15 years and Broady since he was a little nipper. Both players always gave 100% in games and played integeral parts of getting us promoted and almost making it to the league 1 play offs. Broady was even 1 season off getting a testimonial. Think both could`ve done a job for us this season but who knows. So loyalty needs to work both ways. Good luck Josh whatever decision you make.
Posted by: Throopmill, Mt Everest on 4:28pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]ross[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]kevvo[/bold] wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. [bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold] [/quote] nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june. [/quote] How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium.
KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????
ross wrote:
kevvo wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players
nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium.
KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????
Posted by: Throopmill, Mt Everest on 4:28pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]ross[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]kevvo[/bold] wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. [bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold] [/quote] nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june. [/quote] How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium.
KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????
ross wrote:
kevvo wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players
nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium.
KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????
Posted by: ross, christchurch on 4:45pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Throopmill[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]ross[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]kevvo[/bold] wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. [bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold] [/quote] nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june. [/quote] How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium. KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????[/quote] krasner runs the club but that does not stop mostyn talking to the players as he is paying the wages. what will you say if at the end of june when all the out of contract players leave because nobody has talked about a new deal. it will certainly give you something new to have a go at mostyn about
Throopmill wrote:
ross wrote: kevvo wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players
nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium. KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????
krasner runs the club but that does not stop mostyn talking to the players as he is paying the wages. what will you say if at the end of june when all the out of contract players leave because nobody has talked about a new deal. it will certainly give you something new to have a go at mostyn about
Posted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 4:53pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]ross[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]kevvo[/bold] wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. [bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold] [/quote] nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june. [/quote] Yes but given Mostyns track record I would feel more comfortable if he concentrated his efforts on securing the future of the Club. Of course he should be talking to Players as well but its all gone very quiet again . To be honest I dont thin Gowling will stay anyway
ross wrote:
kevvo wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players
nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
Yes but given Mostyns track record I would feel more comfortable if he concentrated his efforts on securing the future of the Club. Of course he should be talking to Players as well but its all gone very quiet again . To be honest I dont thin Gowling will stay anyway
Posted by: GMcMahon, Highcliffe on 4:57pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Charminster1965[/bold] wrote:
Why should players be loyal to this club if it does`nt work the other way round? Look at Fletch and Broady. Fletch was here for 15 years and Broady since he was a little nipper. Both players always gave 100% in games and played integeral parts of getting us promoted and almost making it to the league 1 play offs. Broady was even 1 season off getting a testimonial. Think both could`ve done a job for us this season but who knows. So loyalty needs to work both ways. Good luck Josh whatever decision you make.[/quote] This doesn't make much sense you are saying the club has not given these players any loyalty but then you tell us Fletch was here 15 years and Broady was 1 season off a testimonial, sorry but that looks like loyalty to me, how many players do you know in the modern game that are given contracts with the same club for that many years, don't forget they are being paid and in Fletcher's case very well for the level we play at, so I can't really see your argument, it looks both ways from what you are saying in th is post to me.
Charminster1965 wrote:
Why should players be loyal to this club if it does`nt work the other way round? Look at Fletch and Broady. Fletch was here for 15 years and Broady since he was a little nipper. Both players always gave 100% in games and played integeral parts of getting us promoted and almost making it to the league 1 play offs. Broady was even 1 season off getting a testimonial. Think both could`ve done a job for us this season but who knows. So loyalty needs to work both ways. Good luck Josh whatever decision you make.
This doesn't make much sense you are saying the club has not given these players any loyalty but then you tell us Fletch was here 15 years and Broady was 1 season off a testimonial, sorry but that looks like loyalty to me, how many players do you know in the modern game that are given contracts with the same club for that many years, don't forget they are being paid and in Fletcher's case very well for the level we play at, so I can't really see your argument, it looks both ways from what you are saying in th is post to me.
Posted by: Bimht, sherborne on 5:02pm Mon 12 May 08
..tbh.I don't blame Josh...sometime players can be loyal to the extent of harming their earning potential...as Hayter did by staying at AFCB too long...fans need to get a grip..we are a struggling club on and off the pitch...Josh may or may not be to everyone's liking but for me he is better than L2 standard...as is Kuffour/Hollands and Vokes..Kevin will have to rebuild his side to mount a serious challenge next season this is where he will prove his managerial ability..I say good luck Josh (for I feel that someone will offer you a better deal and a higher level of football) and thanks for what you have done during your time here...
..tbh.I don't blame Josh...sometime players can be loyal to the extent of harming their earning potential...as Hayter did by staying at AFCB too long...fans need to get a grip..we are a struggling club on and off the pitch...Josh may or may not be to everyone's liking but for me he is better than L2 standard...as is Kuffour/Hollands and Vokes..Kevin will have to rebuild his side to mount a serious challenge next season this is where he will prove his managerial ability..I say good luck Josh (for I feel that someone will offer you a better deal and a higher level of football) and thanks for what you have done during your time here...
Posted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 5:03pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]ross[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Throopmill[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]ross[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]kevvo[/bold] wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. [bold]Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players[/bold] [/quote] nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june. [/quote] How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium. KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????[/quote] krasner runs the club but that does not stop mostyn talking to the players as he is paying the wages. what will you say if at the end of june when all the out of contract players leave because nobody has talked about a new deal. it will certainly give you something new to have a go at mostyn about[/quote] Yes but surely he would be critisised even more if he had to pull out at the last minute again because he couldnt find his mystery investor because he was busy securing Players for a Club that is facing closure. Maybe he has already sorted that out and is keeping it to himself. Its not a question of having a go at Mostyn (I am sure he will provide enough reasons) it questioning why the echo is bigging these sort of storys up while the Club still has a very real axe hanging over its head. And what player who is out of contract in his right mind will commit himself to a Club that may not be able to trade. I have been critical of Bond but believe that every days delay at sorting the future of this Club has a direct impact on Bonds ability to plan for next season so its need sorting
ross wrote:
Throopmill wrote: ross wrote: kevvo wrote: But with the dust now settled on Cherries' relegation, chairman Jeff Mostyn is expected to open talks with Gowling's representative Gary Lloyd later this week. Thats all very well Mr Mostyn but wouldnt it be better to secure the Club before individual players
nothing wrong with talking to the players now. get some agreement with them so we dont end up with them all leaving end of june.
How can a man who is NOT the chairman of AFC be having talks with anyone but financial backers of a consortium. KRASNER RUNS THE CLUB IN ADMINITRATION, YES OR NO ??????????
krasner runs the club but that does not stop mostyn talking to the players as he is paying the wages. what will you say if at the end of june when all the out of contract players leave because nobody has talked about a new deal. it will certainly give you something new to have a go at mostyn about
Yes but surely he would be critisised even more if he had to pull out at the last minute again because he couldnt find his mystery investor because he was busy securing Players for a Club that is facing closure. Maybe he has already sorted that out and is keeping it to himself. Its not a question of having a go at Mostyn (I am sure he will provide enough reasons) it questioning why the echo is bigging these sort of storys up while the Club still has a very real axe hanging over its head. And what player who is out of contract in his right mind will commit himself to a Club that may not be able to trade. I have been critical of Bond but believe that every days delay at sorting the future of this Club has a direct impact on Bonds ability to plan for next season so its need sorting
Posted by: tomclarky, Bournemouth on 6:09pm Mon 12 May 08
From this article, it sounds like josh would rather leave and he probably will. tbh he can go if he wants. we should get chris powell as player/coach from charlton whos still in great shape.
From this article, it sounds like josh would rather leave and he probably will. tbh he can go if he wants. we should get chris powell as player/coach from charlton whos still in great shape.
Posted by: Throopmill, Mt Everest on 6:11pm Mon 12 May 08
If Mostyn screws up next week I think there will be a lot of aggro coming his way.
Kevo is correct , the clubs long term future is paramount, Players come and go, we only have one AFCB.
Players only have earning potential during a short playing career. Like all of us , we go to work for money to pay bills and to secure our long term comfort and security.
Josh will go where his earning potential is fully utalised,in a club that has a secure future. Sadly,at present and until I hear otherwise AFCB doesn't!
Good Luck Josh in what ever you do.
If Mostyn screws up next week I think there will be a lot of aggro coming his way.
Kevo is correct , the clubs long term future is paramount, Players come and go, we only have one AFCB.
Players only have earning potential during a short playing career. Like all of us , we go to work for money to pay bills and to secure our long term comfort and security.
Josh will go where his earning potential is fully utalised,in a club that has a secure future. Sadly,at present and until I hear otherwise AFCB doesn't!
Good Luck Josh in what ever you do.
Posted by: kevvo, The dog house again on 6:23pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]tomclarky[/bold] wrote:
From this article, it sounds like josh would rather leave and he probably will. tbh he can go if he wants. we should get chris powell as player/coach from charlton whos still in great shape.[/quote] To be fair Josh never looked like he really wanted to be here and I think he will go too. As for signing other Players its still down to the same problem. Until Good Old Jeff secures the Club along with his mystery partner no player is going to sign for us (not allowed to anyway) So every days delay means players will go elsewhere. We have had all the promises now is the time to deliver.
tomclarky wrote:
From this article, it sounds like josh would rather leave and he probably will. tbh he can go if he wants. we should get chris powell as player/coach from charlton whos still in great shape.
To be fair Josh never looked like he really wanted to be here and I think he will go too. As for signing other Players its still down to the same problem. Until Good Old Jeff secures the Club along with his mystery partner no player is going to sign for us (not allowed to anyway) So every days delay means players will go elsewhere. We have had all the promises now is the time to deliver.
Posted by: AFCB lost in Brum, Birmingham on 6:30pm Mon 12 May 08
Josh is/was very Pitmanesq... he can be both very impressive and bloody awful.
For me his distribution has always been an issue, if you've watched him closely you'll notice many of his passes don't reach one of our players.
He has great potential but I don't think he's grown any this season, which is disappointing when our defence has been so busy.
If I was him I'd stay, work on my game and improve my financial worth... sadly few professional footballers can understand that kind of thinking.
Josh is/was very Pitmanesq... he can be both very impressive and bloody awful.
For me his distribution has always been an issue, if you've watched him closely you'll notice many of his passes don't reach one of our players.
He has great potential but I don't think he's grown any this season, which is disappointing when our defence has been so busy.
If I was him I'd stay, work on my game and improve my financial worth... sadly few professional footballers can understand that kind of thinking.
Posted by: alumchineboy, Alumchine on 8:13pm Mon 12 May 08
I heard it today that Redknapp is going to quit Pompey if they win the cup...........and then on he is going into part retirement but will come in as a investor and Mostyn will stay as Chairman.
Its just something I heard thats all.........
hope he does !
I heard it today that Redknapp is going to quit Pompey if they win the cup...........and then on he is going into part retirement but will come in as a investor and Mostyn will stay as Chairman.
Its just something I heard thats all.........
hope he does !
Posted by: AFCB lost in Brum, Birmingham on 10:32pm Mon 12 May 08
Sorry but I am sick of hearing how Harry's come in on his white charger and save the club.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if he did but realistically, what's in it for him?
As a business proposition buying into the very shakey AFCB is a lot less attractive than the millions, yes millions, he's made as a Premier League manager.
Dear Lord, I hope my negativity is proved wholly wrong (I've never wanted to be more wrong in my life) but really people, would you keep earning £1M plus a year or take on a business with at least £3M worth of debt?
Sorry but I am sick of hearing how Harry's come in on his white charger and save the club.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if he did but realistically, what's in it for him?
As a business proposition buying into the very shakey AFCB is a lot less attractive than the millions, yes millions, he's made as a Premier League manager.
Dear Lord, I hope my negativity is proved wholly wrong (I've never wanted to be more wrong in my life) but really people, would you keep earning £1M plus a year or take on a business with at least £3M worth of debt?
Posted by: richard.board, southampton on 12:15am Tue 13 May 08
correct-there is no mileage with all these stories, he wont come back ever. Its a total fantasy
correct-there is no mileage with all these stories, he wont come back ever. Its a total fantasy
Posted by: A surprise, Bournemouth on 12:51pm Tue 13 May 08
richard you are wrong. Redknapp will be back 1 day he has stated so.
richard you are wrong. Redknapp will be back 1 day he has stated so.
Posted by: alasdair, windsor/kosovo on 3:23pm Tue 13 May 08
just a quick question when is mr mostyns 2 weeks of due deligence up thus when does he have to bid by ?
just a quick question when is mr mostyns 2 weeks of due deligence up thus when does he have to bid by ?
Posted by: Throopmill, Mt Everest on 5:44pm Tue 13 May 08
[quote][bold]A surprise[/bold] wrote:
richard you are wrong. Redknapp will be back 1 day he has stated so.[/quote] So will Jesus, but don't who will arrive first!
A surprise wrote:
richard you are wrong. Redknapp will be back 1 day he has stated so.
So will Jesus, but don't who will arrive first!
Posted by: richard.board, southampton on 10:10pm Tue 13 May 08
Harry -has pumped up a storm about saving us.Frankely he was no where to be seen at the end. He did Wonders here- but those promises were cruel- because they are total dross
Harry -has pumped up a storm about saving us.Frankely he was no where to be seen at the end. He did Wonders here- but those promises were cruel- because they are total dross
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